Creating Better Shows With Jay Acunzo

So you think you need a podcast or maybe you already have one but let's get real about something not all shows are great shows summer just bad. You know, I'm right but what's the difference between a bad show and one that draws you in keeps you coming back and even wanting more at the end of the episode with all these shows popping up these days. If you're going to add to that pool hundreds of thousands of shows what sort of expectations should you have? What should be your mindset? Because seriously, there will soon be a million podcast get your head around that real quick million more than a million shows for your audience to choose from why should they choose yours?

In summary, what's the making of a great show? Hello everyone. I'm Lindsay check, CEO and co-founder of casted the B2B podcasting platform and this is our podcast.

I'm so excited about today is gassed. He's a great friend of mine and it's such a great partner to us here at casted. He's Jay acunzo author podcast host speaker and founder of marketing showrunner. Jay has been podcasting since 2014 and since then has made several shows including his current one one of my faves Unthinkable. He's just such a great Storyteller into such a great job with the show on the listen to which is why I'm excited to introduce you all to Jay. Although I'm pretty sure many of you know, who he is already. He and I are so personally aligned and what podcasts should and should not be why and why not to do one and what your expectations should be if you do have one. So without further delay, here's J.

Jackunzel I'm founder of marketing showrunners, which very meta to the show teaches marketers how to make better shows to build passion audiences. And I also have hosted or am currently hosting upwards of like a dozen documentary series whether that's an audio or video so I'ma show nerd

One shoulder to another I love it. So tell me what when your career in podcasting began What did the what did it look like? When was it might happen? I think it began with this is how a lot of my projects begin. It's like finding the magic someone else is doing something. I'm like, woah, how did you do that? And so for me it was with Radiolab from WNYC and just the immersion. I felt like it's such that their sound design is unbelievable. Their storytelling is great, especially early Radiolab lyrics for big Concepts, like color or memory and forgetting and how that works like your analogy and story and sound design. Just did they created the most delicious audio ever and I was like I want to do that. How do I get some mazing? I want to make others feel like I feel right now and I had this friend of the nonprofit in Boston and I was working for a VC firm at the time of next few and the nonprofit Health Connect the tech industry to nonprofits that needed no technical expert.

He's marketing out. And so that's how I got close to the director. And he's like talk to me. Contact. Like I think we should be publishing more content and it was like absolutely and this is not a hit agenda at all. You should make a podcast and also this is not a hidden agenda either I should host it.

And so he was like, yeah sure and so I have to like find a way to make 3 4 5 episode of what it was but you know, I came up with this concept that because the organization the nonprofit that I was working with connected the tech industry to the nonprofit industry. I would take one important theme in the business world and I would have an interview two people one for nonprofit one from for-profit and see how they came out it and I called it Tackett forward instead of play it pay it forward and I need three episodes is a lot of fun. I think people liked it. I sound so bored as a host. It was like I said, the audio's are all over the place yet. It isn't tight. The volume levels are crazy different and I didn't have a clue how to use a microphone or my voice most importantly and I made three episodes that showed me I could do this so that I pitch my bosses at next to you once that's that little mini experiment went away cuz my friend left a non-profit.

I was like, I want to make a shout by the way, here's something that I did you can kind of hear what I'm getting at. If you don't listen to these episodes that is a side project, but I want to make a show for you. I want to be concept lead. I want to be highly produced will call attraction because we're seed-stage investors and every every BC and their mom is podcasting. They're doing the B2B thing. They're interviewing experts. It's really boring. Very commodified. We're going to make it entertaining and smart at the same time. And so they were like, yeah go for it. So I made 52 episodes of traction over the course of like a year year-and-a-half when I left I started Unthinkable, which is it might steal my show think about and then people heard the production value thought I had a team but it was just me tinkering on process and I asked me to create shows for them so that became a business which is making shows for other brands and not the tail from Services into education, which is what I do now with marketing showrunners when was traction, like what year is it?

That's traction was 2014 to 2016 in a little bit cuz it was a side project before it was like a focal point of my business and I remember I would I would like over there they still are and were highly scripted episodes. So I would march to a coffee shop like to three days a week at like 6:30 in the morning. I'll be the first one. They are I'd write my show I then go to work and then like one day a week. I'd still like a lunch break at work to record in the office. So I think that lasted about I don't know she's six to nine months. I was doing traction and I'm think about the same time. So what were some of the challenges that you ran into? I mean were you were you recording and editing and pretty saying and and and and all by yourself? I mean like initially I had no help on traction at all. I never had help on traction with something Cabool. It was kind of

Intended to be a way to help with my speaking career because it is speaking number ones has practice number to its way to log stories for speeches which kind of my sneaky Advantage like I spoke to an event last week with event marketers very meta an event for event marketers and I had an event marketing story in the speech and they were like how the hell'd you customize your speech like that and it's like well, I've been telling these kind of stories for whatever five six years now like almost once a week if not more cuz it multiple shows. So how does backlog that I can pull from so Unthinkable was always about helping my speaking business. So I did fund sort of I support a little bit more on that show. Like I right now work with a producer named Tyler Gabriel and she helps me do story research and she herself produces some stories and hops on the microphone doesn't sing with me. I've worked before with some audio Engineers. So yeah, I think that that was a little more infrastructure but it's still very very lean.

So you are the definition of a lot of Ficus right now who you do it so well, I mean obviously you can't tell me that doesn't sound like it's all it's all you is something you got entire team behind you. So, how do you how did you get there? How did you know it was all just self-taught. Do you have any background in that like a teacher get there? I do want it like keep my who were speaking with B2B marketers who are in house and listening to this cuz they're thinking about it on their team's I I find it's a Fool's errand at the the Working World bastardize is creativity in one very real way many ways, which is pitch and I D like a Pie cast.

Add a brand it's like we have to know this is going to work before we do it but that's a how creativity works the creativity works by like tweaking little things all the time. It's like the the project is a summary of lots of little wins and losses and moments of learning in emotion. Like it's you can't just be like we're starting it from scratch. It's the first episode we've never done this before and it's a runaway hit like yet. You have to focus on tinkering and constant learning cuz that's what this is. So for me with something cabal, it was a side project. It's still ostensibly is it's not like I don't make money directly on the show like advertising or anything. So I think it's all self-taught but it's like a focus on what can I do better next time what excites me what gives me energy what removes energy that I have to Outsource or stop doing and that's how I think most brands should focus that I should come or process to it. They should think about like a pilot or two or a couple or radio Pilots seasons can be very small only for a superfan to our trust us and give us a benefit.

The doubt when we figured it out, then we'll go broad with the marketing play boat, but we'd be kind of conflated to get flu-like. We're going to start from scratch create something awesome right away and go big right away. And that's just not that's ignoring how this stuff actually works. So did you know that going in or is that something I was like, I know I'm this is going to be super painful and I'm going to have his vision for what I should be in my head. It's appropriately from Ira Glass cuz we're talkin podcasting but Ira Glass talks about the gap which is like when you get into creative work you have this taste you can appreciate creative work and aspired to it but your skills and your ability to put out the work don't match your taste and so this Gap exists and the only way to close the gap. Did you got to put out a lot of work and so like I knew that heading into this show like Unthinkable I still listen to episodes and I'm like, what was I thinking why was I doing this like I got improved.

It's just I'm always tinkering. It's always like tweaking and in trying with little wrinkles. I think our how actual Innovation happens. I don't think it's a big theoretical change our decision or idea dick real Innovation is like Frontline changes little hottie wrinkles all the time. So I just been beaten up a lot by the creative process and like knew about this Gap. So I was like, okay, I know this is going to suck early on I aspire to be great, but I'm focused on everyday Improvement. I like that and that's would that be your advice is just just go create and there was an entrepreneur in Boston who had found me through another client show that I did a while ago with a Boston tech company and you treated me yesterday. He's okay. I found the show you did a couple years ago. I appreciate it. Like how you described it and how you work with that team. I like that team that I found you. I'm thinking of starting a show. I am starting a show for my agency. What do you recommend? What was one thing you wish you did differently early on what what is an article like, can you list an article or two from marking showrunners that I should start with?

And I responded and I was trying to be respectful but it was really frustrating cuz it was sort of like that's he was trying to sort of short cut. The only way to do this, which is I told him you need to just start putting out a lot of work put out episodes before you think you're ready. If you don't want to Market them don't Market them give them to people that trust that you trust her that that already love you like just the only way through is what was the only way around is through right? That's afraid. I think the only way to get good at this is just got to do it like you want to write going to write you want to be a speaker. You got to speak if you wannabe podcast, right? You got a podcast theory that actually derails good work putting out bad work with the intent to be good is the only way to be good.

B2B branded shows Brandon podcast feel like they're everywhere and nowhere feels like there's a lot happening but there's a lot left to come. Where do you feel like we are without tell me you tell me the state the state of of the advantages did the state as it as it were to talk about shows you have to put a side shows for a moment. And I think it's more important that we understand what's happening with people and anything we do in marketing and we can then build up from those first principles a lot better. Like we can build up better original thinking we can build up more strategic thinking for executives like everything gets better. If you just understand the world first and then you have to come into that world. There is some kind of preconceived a pre-existing Notions into which you're introducing and Innovation, but that you have to understand those terms first. So we're living through this fundamental shift in marketing, which is a phrase. A lot of people have sat on a lot of marketing podcast, but when we didn't talk about the shift we talked about the wrong things we talked about our Industries reaction to what we assume is the shift we talked about cousin marketing influencer.

ABM we talked about making shows like we start at the actions were taken not at the fundamental shift the fundamental shift. Is that marketing used to be all about grabbing attention. You just needed a few seconds here and there on a few different messages because there was limited Choice. It was very easy to navigate the media landscape. It wasn't that difficult to get in front of people. The hard part was maybe the right message or theme of the frequency in math and not to the purchase but the job was to grab attention that is no longer the case. It's so profoundly not the case that it's laughable to me. How many hawks are is in marketing earn a living by promising you can buy grab attention grab followers, whatever the job is not to grab attention. The job is to hold it. And so now marketers are thinking about subscriber is not clicks and views or thinking about total time spent not Impressions. They're thinking about how do you remove somebody from you-know-where of the brand to focus more on brand Affinity think about the velocity down the funnel instead of how big can we make the top of our funnel or how much can we bludgeon the people who arrived?

And so I decided about three or four months ago from when we're speaking now, it's late summer 2019 now but early in the spring I decided to launch marketing show runners.com to coalesce this community of marketers who are operating under one core belief, which is that marketing is not about who arrives it's about who stays and it just so happens that one really powerful way to encourage more people to stay to engender trust to hasten their velocity down the final line spur Word of Mouth one great way to ask it on that belief system is to make a shout. So if you first get the shift, then embrace the belief about marketing becomes given that shift now we can talk about Chess. Absolutely and I feel like there is this big movement. Obviously you and I are both of us here and and and rallying this movement with with this conversation around what what should shows be and what should they not be in? What should you expect and what should you not expect in before I jump on my own soap box I watch.

Share yours. So where where should your your head be before you even jump into this why I think so we speak with marketing showrunners. We speak to a very specific person in marketing. I mentioned the belief system, but we speak to someone who's making strategic decisions. So what we're not going to do is publish, you know, 101 level what microphone should I buy kind of content? Cuz that's commodified. It's also not overly useful for marketers. I guess a lot of knowledge out there for hobbyists, which you can tap into to figure out your microphone setup. There's a lot of knowledge out there for traditional media public radio, for example in the podcast world. There's almost nothing collected and coalesced for strategic marketing decision making when it comes to making shows and we got to start there and say the things I would wrap your mind around if you're listening and you're part of the team or leading a team is what is a show good for and there's a couple flavors of answers. So 1 is you can answer it by what are we measuring right? Cuz show me how someone is measured I'll show you how they behave and the other is

What is the audience going through and obviously I think the most important thing to start with his what the audience is going through but it's a much shorter answer to think about what you're measuring. So, let me just start there. So what you want to look at is too distinct benefits to the company number one if you want to increase or you will increase if you have a good show you increase the lifetime value to your brand of everybody rich people spend more time with you. I mean think about how crazy this is to like our marketing ancestors if you will, it's like, you know, okay. I know you're concerned with a 30-second TV spot or a 15-second pre-roll add interesting every single week thousands and thousands of people that we're trying to reach or who already purchased our product and are becoming super fans. Now thousands of people spend 10 minutes 20 minutes 30 minutes 60 minutes an hour and a half with us every week. That's Insanity. That is seems beyond reach.

Until you make a shop. And so the first thing you do is you increase the lifetime value of those you reach right now, they spend time with you. They trust you. They take more action on your behalf, you know to ask anybody who has a podcast about the visceral response. If they have a good show the visceral response that they get when they meet somebody who listen to offline. It's like nothing you've ever experienced. I got you as a speaker for I'm on the road a lot and I speak a lot and you don't talk to people right after the speech and what a my favorite interactions started out as something really horrifying which is people being like like talking to me like an old friend and in my head, I'm like, oh no. Oh no. I'm not on that moron who doesn't remember who this person is there speaking to me like I'm nothing like 6th at 7 different times turns out it was more like 30 different times for an hour each time cuz it was going to show show me another type of content. Does that the first thing as a marketing leader and I defy not in your title or in your behavior a liter?

The lifetime value to your company of everybody you reach goes up. The second thing is that the cost of acquisition of new customers goes down because what happens when people ignore your show, I mean, how do we all interact with our friends? But it comes to any kind of show and any industry is word-of-mouth. And so the people who you reach are more valuable to you and the people that bacon and reach out basically markets you to others for free. So LTD goes up Cactus cost of customer acquisition goes down and the sound that you're hearing right now is every CMO drooling.

Absolutely, absolutely in and that's one of the things that we are actively solving for and pointing to and trying to make make some player. But how are you? How are you seeing those conversations come to play because my past life, you know, there were lots of conversations about. Okay. Why are we doing this? What's Roi what's the value investing all the time and money into this show. I see how much time your team does investing in the show. What are we getting out of it? And it's it's a lot harder for most marketers 2.2 that real tangible value into that LTD reduce cat and a lifetime long term marathon type improvements. When a lot of the people that marketers are surrounded by want to see the Sprints in the spikes in the you know, hockey sticks, right? All your focus on is the near-term spike in the numbers. You're not doing anything sustainable like marketing today is about finding sustainable process these teams that that grow

Weather in and learn together and they build brand Affinity out in the marketplace icon marketing is sustainable marketing is a marathon for the teams that are focus on Sprint's and I don't mean that in like the Lean Startup way. I need that it like the stand-ups now. I mean like all you care about is like hitting the numbers this month so you don't have a system in place to make sure that you know till next month benefits from this month, right you hit reset and start 0 every month a show is not a good approach that I run a company where I'm trying to grow the size of the pie more marketers making more and better shows. That's the goal grow the pie and even still I'm going to look at Market in the face and be like, this is not a good approach for you cuz you have to get on board with some philosophical things first before you do the Tactical stuff and I think that's the missing piece and it were seat. We saw with blogging we saw with video sing with audio every new thing that comes up there's those that are there to ride the wave and as soon as the wave crashes they go back out to sea then there's those that are digging into the fundamentals under

Eastside water and doesn't matter what waves come and go they stay they stick and stay until like that's who I want to speak to us why I want to find more relevant, encourage more people to to be and it does have to do with the second thing I mention which is like what is the audience going through the audience is looking for something that they can genuinely invest their time in you can't game that system. There's not like a trick or a technique or just follow this one simple rule and everything will be hunky-dory. It's really strategic and there's lots of moving pieces. So it is a brand exercise and I don't mean that in branding. I mean that in team-wide you can't make a show as a side project and hope it succeeds you can test your way there. But if it's a side Carriage to what your main marketing is at all times, it'll never actually be successful. So it's about the philosophical agreement on your team. What is marketing for today? Yes, we agree. It's not holding attention. It's about audience at about awareness. And total numbers is about a finity and long-lasting connection with our audience not about transacting them in the near-term if

Free on all that stuff now we can talk about shows which which to me is the good news if you act right now because not everybody out there has got on board with that. So if you do it, right the backdrop is a lot of people doing it wrong, which I get mad at but you if you're in House at a branch should be super excited about your like thank you everybody for butchering this technique of this tactic is approached like I'm going to do it well and instantly I'm going to stand way out just like like having competency. That's that goes away once everybody is confident. See you now, you're focused elsewhere. But anyways, so box you asked for it. You got it. I like it. I like it. So in and it is interesting and you and I are both in the the the world of podcasting both as podcasters and leaving company. Is it a lot to do with podcast and it's interesting because depending on who you talk to you, there's even that I roll like, oh my gosh, everyone has a podcast now or it's really really are.

I think the vast majority of people are super excited and and and get it but it's a way to literally and figuratively speak to your audience. Like we are right now and to resonate with with individuals in to create a new and different kind of Engagement and an interaction a human to human interaction between a brand and a consumer or Brandon audience member and so to our audience who either is probably listening and has their own podcast and is wondering how do I do this thing? How do I do better? How do I get more out of it or someone who's has yet to get into it from a brand perspective. Where should their head be? What should they be thinking as they think about their own branded BP podcast?

I think a show can either represent the entirety of your Brand's so they're not brand message. That's the wrong word. But like what the brand stands for it could be the entirety of that. We're can be one of the supporting seems that you're trying to own I'll give you an example. I am working with organization called pouya and pouya offers tools for online creators and experts to monetize your passion. So you can sell courses about accounting if you're an influential accountant or lawyer or you know, whatever it is or if it's something that feels a little bit more like traditionally creative in our quotes like you cancel membership to access your video content podcast your blog newsletter that can stop. So he wants you to make money off of your passion. It tends to skewed towards creators, but it could also be any kind of expert in a Craftsman. Okay, that's what they do. So we started talking about making a podcast together. There were two choices. Do we want to own this idea? That's very broad about the kind of creative economy.

And Creator businesses and we'll do some kind of show that summarizes. In the name of the show and the theme of the show a little more succinctly than an idea, but that's the short hand is a show all about with the company's all about or is there one specific theme that we know if we own it outright in the marketplace a competitor to copy it can basically be called out right? Cuz everybody can copy the blog posts in the tips and tricks and not really you don't know about tonight. But if you copy someones show it's it's IP, you know that that I pee is bigger than one piece of content. It sit across many pieces does episodes and it can be plucked out and applied to an annual events or newsletter cetera to the question was are we making a show that is basically podia as a show without talking about us talking about the seams if only cares about or is there one theme in particular that if we owned it, it would be a competitive Advantage it would grow the market it would attract the right people in that market to Podium and we bills with that was the first choice that we made. I think the First Choice a lot of people should make and we chose the latter just to close the loop on.

Story we chose to own a theme which is making creativity and kind of like creative as a career path more.

Palatable more exciting more accessible. That's the word we want to encourage more people to create content and monetizable content that around their passion area and to do that. We have to lower for the fear of Entry. We have to deconstruct. What we're doing is we're deconstructing like world-class creators one favorite project of theirs set of talking about their career. We're taking one project like the most pinned woman on Pinterest Joy Cho she and I deconstructed her newest course and about all the minutiae and the emotion and the decision that is hidden behind the scenes to create a great course. All right. Why are we doing that again? Go back out to the Brand level remove yourself from the show. If podia can Inspire more people to start creating courses ebooks podcast etcetera and they are the brain responsible a they own this idea that creativity should be accessible to all and be that points everybody who believes in that and it's it gets inspired by

Listen to that show to Cody of products. So that's the first thing I tell everyone to do focus on is this the Brand's larger theme manifest as a show or is this one specific theme concept banter can see if we own it beneficial to the audience and toss

There's only three parts to a Shell by the way, a concept that sits across the whole show. So talking topics with experts not a concept maybe at one point it was but today that's been profoundly commodify in every ditch. So I being the first show about ex that goes away soon as there's a second show not a concept so a concept of something like like science vs. My favorite show level concept from gimlet media, they are traditional publisher. But we're at we're trying to act like them science versus is a sideshow and that's one of the most crowded categories and I'll podcasting a science but you know, when they talk about organic foods compared to everybody else. It's the science versus the perception the pop culture understanding the Miss, right? I get it now science versus their name reveals the concept which is brilliant and ideal. So you need to hook you need to see Durango used the concept that sits across the whole show. The second thing you need is an episode level structure or a format that can be hidden.

Come view that listener has no idea that you have a structure. It could be over SportsCenter on ESPN was famous for at one point publishing. It's rundown visible on the screen. You knew every section with a call block some tea. I'm you but sometimes you're Jose a Block B Block C black but you need a plan and that could also mean even if you don't produce it per se like how the post-production process and editing you have a plan for the interview and you move succinctly through the interview is not an open-ended generic interview. Hope this goes well fingers crossed. I'm singing episode level format and structure and I helped you innovate with purpose cuz you have to overhaul the whole show or proceed on Gutfeld it helps you scale cuz you can tell people this is the format and it helps you stay consistent too because every episode feels like it's your own proprietary type of episode a great example of that is hot ones, which is a YouTube series actually not a podcast but they they do they eat spicy or and spicy or wings as an interview progresses with a celebrity. So it's like one question is for what?

Keeps getting spicier and then halfway through they have a little segment called explain that gram where it's about explaining some kind of hidden picture deep in the Instagram archives of the celebrity and at the very end. They have a concluding segments called the last dab which is kind of a will. They won't they add a last out of extra hot sauce as they're dying to the last Wing, but they have this segment that approach it's visible to the viewer. It's on the table as the winds, right? Same idea think like hot ones. What is the format of your episode whether or not it's highly edited Jolla boconcept episode format talent talent is the most underutilized thing. If you are host is beloved by those audience members put them on stage put her into your agenda for your own conference create a video series around her him like have a plan for something is going well people build relationships not with a celebrity that carries your brand Banner, but with you your company like I prefer always that it's a an employee hosting concept.

What's a little structure Talent? If you focus discreetly on those three things, you will create a far better show having a plan for those than any competitor who is putting a microphone in front of two smart people and assuming it's going to work and it never does. I know you're talking about it always works works every time everybody knows this is a 3 out of 10 when we do it this way everybody right and people are changing their behavior. And I don't think it's because we don't want to change our Behavior. I think it's because this is such a new muscle for so many people and we do have a million things going on. Like I predicted marketing showrunner like a showrunner will be a title people will have in marketing at some point. But until we get there where it's a full-time job, everybody sort of bringing other skills over to shows or taking a percent of their time and their distracted by other things and that's why they chase the next thing instead of reusing the episode if it's just it's a new muscle. It's an important one, but it is something that's new and so my goal with marketing showrunners is let's break this

The part that only sharing with each other but also pulling from outside the echo chamber and seeing what works and what doesn't.

Keep in mind one Golden Rule. It's not a savior. It's not a you know Panacea here, but it's very helpful as a heuristic the goal of a show of an episode of a series of a network of show is only want the Golden Rule get them to the end. If you make all your decisions with that idea in mind, you will create a show people love because if you're thinking about getting them to the end, what do you do? We don't stuff the intro full of stock music and announcer voice and then switch to liked any audio and a board sounding host. You start strong you do a cold open instead of a Meandering bio from somebody. It's a goal is to get into the end of the series. You don't end the episode by dropping them off a cliff you give them something worth thinking about something so delicious if they can't wait to get more of it or actual prompt 11 call Dax not a dozen not rate review subscribe. I invite me to your sister's birthday party. No one call to action or one moment that gets them to go to the next episode why cuz it's about

to the end

That's it for the show. Thanks to Our Guest to my friend. Jay comes out to learn more about Jay and marketing showrunners and to seek acid in action with clips from this episode and related content. This is casted. Us. Thanks for listening.